Note: I am not as closed-minded as some people might like to believe (or so I would like to think). I understand that there are always two sides to a point, plus a grey area. This article is just my personal opinion. In no way am I asserting that everyone should agree or that I do not realize in reality that the general mindset is that skinny girls are more pleasing. I do not think I am that big of a narrow-minded dumbass. Thank you.
It is tragic that for the most part, talent gets shafted so often in the music industry. So frequently we see only hot girls with provocative dances (albeit half the time only showing off mediocre dancing skills) and subpar singing succeed greatly. But sadly, as soon as someone is not physically appealing, they are immediately criticized and swept under the rug as "untalented" or forced to get plastic surgery.
In the case of the Piggy Dolls, I honestly believe they are underrated greatly due to such a shallow mindset. I am not saying their voices are angelic (although I do think they have a nice, deeper tone), nor that their dancing is mind-blasting (during their Trend days, they did not really move a lot). But I think for a rookie group, they did have somewhat different (but the good kind) voices and loosely, a new sort of sass (especially the one in the sunglasses). In regards to their concept, they were really proud of who they were and not ashamed to be bigger in size, knowing full well they were advertising themselves to a target audience wanting sexy skinny girls. And what saddens me is that they felt like they had a shot with this idea, but was never given a second look.
Again, I am not saying that their songs were exactly enticing nor were they revolutionary (not going to lie, I did not enjoy Trend. Know Her was better, but definitely was not a song that was going to bring them to the top of the charts). Personally, I did not think they were given a good debut song, outfits, or even an exciting MV. But what I want to say is that I really think people should have been less critical of their look and concept and should have given their attention to their talent and music. Girls and boys who cannot sing worth *profanity* are put on gold pedestals for being "so very hot", yet three girls who work equally as hard but are not as aesthetically pleasing get bashed for trying to be themselves and role models.
A while back I read an article on AllKPop. It said:
Kim Min Sun (21), who weighs 90kg, began, “... I was born with the love of eating, which is how I got my current ‘U-line.’“ ... [t]he group’s combined weight totaled to 232kg, with Lee Ji Yeon (21) weighing at 72kg, and maknae Park Ji Eun (18) at 70kg.
Park Ji Eun continued, “When we first auditioned, there were three conditions. First, we had to be talented vocally. We also could not have had any plastic surgery done, and we had to weigh over 70kg.”
Unfortunately, due to the flop of their debut album, the conditions have changed drastically, as she went on to reveal, “... after our first album flopped, [our CEO] said that the fat concept won’t work anymore. He’s trying to change our image now by making us lose weight, but we don’t want to.”
When asked by MC Kang Ho Dong whether they had any intentions of reaching a compromise with their agency, Kim Min Sun replied, “We, of course, thought about it. But let’s say that we lose weight and get plastic surgery. That doesn’t mean we will be popular. Kang Ho Dong is overweight, but also became the best MC. Why can’t overweight people achieve their dreams? The pain of being told to leave the room at auditions even before I opened my mouth to sing is still left in my heart. I want people that are overweight to not be so self-conscious and to be able to leave their house without shame. We want to become hope to them.”
But, they then made a comeback months later, each losing approximately 20kgs due to "late night dance practices". I call BS. They were forced to probably due to some sort of twisted threat of losing their contract. A representative announced *cough*trying to cover the company's ass*cough* that their weight loss was natural due to the rigorous training and was in "no way due to dieting". This is burdensome on the girls now as they currently appear as hypocrites. They are literally the average weight of many North Americans; so they could potentially change their name is Average Weight Dolls.
Really, sometimes I wish music was about music. Not everything should be about looks. But that is not reality now, is it. It is really too bad that a majority of girls will continue to be self-conscious about their looks and weight. Not even a group attempting to shed that narrow-minded idea (with the talent to back it up) could succeed, so what are the chances that other attempts in this Kpop industry could fare better?
It's sad that we live in a day and age where talent is ignored and only fat people can become stars.
ReplyDelete:c
I'm glad you wrote an article on this. You've summed it all up very concisely, particularly with your last line. After seeing the lack of success the Piggy Dolls had, I doubt other companies will even attempt anything similar. This mindset won't change for years.
ReplyDeleteIt's true than many people who try to get into the music scene are shafted 'cause of their looks, but you also have to look at how some popular artists were picked because they were "ugly" and used that way. Isn't that also sort of exploitation?
ReplyDeleteAlso, just saying (don't think you meant this but Imma say it anyways) it's not like all the current idols are talentless hoes. A lot of them are talented and pretty faces. But you are right that many aren't.
I am also an AS fan like you =] so I know you aren't being prejudice against the skinnies. Just becareful cause it came out bitter like you were.
Good article overall though!!!
The people will never stop thinking skinny is hot :/
ReplyDeletePersonally, im a chubby chaser, i like my men big (I think thats where my shindong love comes from[Before the Fugly Mushroom/Bowl Cut])
AND BITCH PLEASE RIGOROUS DANCE TRAINING, it took me 3 months to learn the dance for f(x) Danger and i only lost 5 kg.
I don't want to imagine what would happen to those already-skinny girls if training late was really making lose ~20kg.
ReplyDeleteAnd the worst is that they are still considered fat and will always because they have been.
At least it is healthier.
Btw, is this really the average north american weight?
J.K Doogarn - That's not necessarily true. I read somewhere that human men are naturally attracted to larger-bodied woman (i.e. large breasts). A woman with larger breasts would be better suited to feeding and raising a child; it is merely society that has conditioned our minds to find skinnier woman more attractive (more specifically, skinny girls with breasts and ass).
ReplyDeleteTheir debut sucked dick on a stick. Trend song sucked, dancing sucked, Mv sucked, it sucked.
ReplyDeleteIf they debuted with Know Her than they probably would of got a lot more popularity. ...cuz i actually really like their new song...
I also like how people believe that new groups shoot straight to stardom... No. Piggy Dolls are just like any other rookie group, and a lot of people just jumped on their bandwagon because their concept.
Anyways... I hope they come out with more songs like Know Her, cuz that shits duh gut.
Spittin' truth.
ReplyDelete"Really, sometimes I wish music was about music".
Me too.We arent sold music anymore just image.I think that is why I listen to ol school music more than I do new school.There,and I know that this will sound cheesy but,there is this authenticity that I feel is lacking in mainstream music today.And in that sense it goes beyond just looks,its about the quality of music being made.
Some of the songs that people release today are enough to make me want to divorce humanity and brand myself an alien,because that shit just doesn't make any sense.Alas there is nothing I can do,but whip out my Johnny Cash stash and hope that we will go back to making music that tell stories,music that forces us to think.
@Davidfresh
ReplyDeleteNow i dont feel so weird :D
Thanks for writing an article on the Piggy Dolls. I happen to admire them for having the courage to perform and NOT conform to the whole "you must be skinny (read: flat-chested or have fake boobs) in order to make it big in K-pop" idea that just about every K-pop girl group (and yes, f(x) counts even though they have Amber in it) conforms to. Also, I need the English translations to their songs.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, they can't sing as well as people expect them to sing; Big Mama rapes their asses anyday
ReplyDeletethey're kinda like a fail attempt at making Big Mama mainstream. Their music hasn't impressed me so far, regardless of their size.
ReplyDeleteI feel sorry for these girls, though. I really do. They aren't being treated like humans.
and tbqh everybody needs to stop pretending like mainstream/pop industries are meant for preserving the integrity of music; any good song created in the system is pure chance. They're about selling a product to an audience.
we are talking about korea here, Koreans are as superficial about looks as you can get. You see how they regard looks first in everything in the society, its everywhere.
ReplyDeleteforgot to also add that their size now, I would say is about avg in America, though women here are a little taller so its pretty proportion, weight to height.
ReplyDeleteBut damn they lost a lot of weight.
20kg is a lot of weight to lose, thats about 40 pounds (for the imperial users there)
THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS!
ReplyDeleteI honestly liked them alot regardless of the weight. hell! i thought ji eun was really cute even though she was on the heavy side ;).
I feel bad for them because they lost this "battle" with their company when the company should have at least TRIED to give them better material before going to the extreme and making them lose weight. Because seriously, "Trend" was a horrible...EVERYTHING. Horrible clothes, horrible song, horrible concept. This new song is a bit better but it has nothing to do with their weight.
I love their new songs! Have you seen the music video? THEY SHOOT FRIKEN LASER BEAMS OUT OF THEIR FRIKEN EYES!!!
ReplyDeleteBeing overweight is unnatural and unhealthy. Individuals who are overweight have a much lower lifespan expectancy and consistently have far more health troubles as they get older. I saw several of my grandparents, aunts and uncles go through great medical and mobility difficulties and die too soon because of issues directly related to them being overweight.
ReplyDeleteShould it be a means by which we judge a person's value as a person? No. Should it be something we allow to discredit talent? No. Should it be something actively recognized as a self-destructive lifestyle that should carry a stigma, never be celebrated, and be encouraged to avoid or quit as soon as possible, in a very similar manner to drug addictions? Yes. It is substance abuse. Food is the substance, eating too much or too much of the unhealthy forms is the abuse. It is done for the good feeling that comes from doing it, just like with drugs.
In addition to this, when you tell people to not have an aversion to overweight people, you are telling them to deny their humanity. Sexuality and attractiveness, being directly related to procreation, is obviously a deeply inherent and important aspect of humanity. All the related natures within us to unanimously and cross-culturally find certain things attractive are exactly that: Nature. It should not be denied, especially for the sake of something that is objectively worse as a self-destructive lifestyle.
Being overweight is not "who you are" but is something you have done to yourself or in some unfortunate cases, something your parents started doing to you before you made your own dietary choices. It has been scientifically proven a thousand different ways. Some people do have a proclivity to the habits which lead to it, and it can be difficult to get out of once you are in it, but that does not change the fact that it is a result of lifestyle choices in exactly the same manner as drug addictions.
^ Omfg THANK YOU. I am tired of people acting like their debut didn't suck "as bad" as skinny girl group debuts just because they happen to be fat. I will not give anyone a pity chance because they can't take care of their goddamn bodies. Being fat isn't something to be celebrated or encouraged.
ReplyDeleteIt's coo, they'll get praised for being pretty in Korea and not vocals. Then when they try to expand to say America we have nooooo problem calling Bullshit right to their faces asap. That was we are rude and honest. You'd never see Park Kahi say on twitter "got damn Goo hara can't sing for shiggity shit!" lol But in America land of free speech it's no holds barred we call out people left right center on twitter/tmz/tv where ever. Fuck respect (age/time in music). If you don't got talent that will quickly be brought right tha fucks up sooooo I'm not worried in due time.. In due time, just work hard.
ReplyDelete'Being overweight is unnatural and unhealthy.'
ReplyDeletei agree with the unhealthy part, but how can something that happens naturally be unnatural lol. there are overweight animals in the world too, it's not a man manufactured thing.
during Trend i would agree with you that is was bad, but their current weight isn't that bad tbh.
on another note, 'talent' is overrated. you can be the most talented person in the world, but if your music sucks, then i'm not going to force myself to listen.
i think passion is WAYY more important. if you have talent, but you don't have passion, then you don't get anywhere. but if its vice versa, you still have a shot.
That's like saying drugs are natural because we make the ingredients from natural sources. Becoming very overweight is unnatural because naturally we are hunter-gatherers. The innovations of agriculture and food processing have allowed us to overindulge our natural instincts for fat/sugar/salt and not even get exercise working hard to acquire them. We can now stockpile and consume them in amounts thousands of times higher than we would have found them in the wild. In fact, the worst offenders aren't even these things by direct intake, but things which break down into them, such as bleached flours, refined sugars, and other empty carbs. It is good that we can prepare things for ourselves, but when we practice no self control and distort foods so far behind their natural state and consume them in amounts far beyond our biological needs, we do an unnatural thing to ourselves.
ReplyDeleteAs for the respect part, even being talented doesn't mean you deserve fame. There are hundreds of thousands of extremely talented people, and the ones who become famous do so mostly by luck. As performers, they are trying to make a living by offering absolutely nothing to society except the experience of seeing/hearing them. Thus, that experience had better be pretty damn wonderful, if not by sound then by visual, and preferably a combination of both. The idea of art being a valid use of your life is different in our modern capitalistic societies as opposed to older times when artists would be supported by the king/emperor to enrich the culture.
^when you say it in a more scientific way it makes sense and you're right. but when you think about it on a more personal level things get a little gray. I wouldn't tell my overweight friend she's "unnatural" and that her eating ways are similar to a "drug addiction". That stuff looks great on paper but when you deal with human emotions you end up sounding like a dick if you say that to someone. The last thing i want to do is make someone i care about sound like shit.
ReplyDeleteAs for Piggy Dolls, yes they were over-weight, but the message they gave was nice. In today's world losing weight is not JUST seen as choosing a healthier lifestyle, it goes beyond that. Suddenly, you're inferior because you weigh more and not considered "sexy". Things that come from more of a cultural point of view than a scientific or biological. Piggy Dolls weren't trying to tell girls to stay unhealthy, but trying to give them a bit of encouragement in a society that sees these girls as being lesser than skinnier females. It's just sad that Piggy Dolls themselves fell victim to the very system they were trying to change.
That's the problem with girls, they're so worried about emotions that they never deal with the realities that made emotions an issue to begin with.
ReplyDeleteSHE is not unnatural, but her LIFESTYLE is. Yes, it is a complex and difficult thing once it has developed, but the first thing to tackle is the very problem you reinforce simply by phrasing it that way: It is not what she IS, it is what she DOES.
Weight comes and goes, it is the stream of calories being stored and used in your body. If you eat the correct things which metabolize into less calories than you burn (an amount which increases from exercise) then you will lose weight. So every day that you do not lose weight is a day you have decided not to do this. It is a thing of action, not a thing of being. Would you hate yourself for getting the flu? No, because you recognize it not as your identity but a temporary biological state. She is hurt by putting her identity into the (hopefully) temporary state of having stored too many calories.
Also, the reality that it is not sexy to most people can hurt, but it is a reality. Wanting people to hide the fact that it is completely unattractive to them is wanting them to help you live in denial. Wanting them to validate it as a way of living is asking them to lie. It isn't something like racism where it is just "different" and maybe they aren't used to it. It has been scientifically proven that obesity is unattractive. There are features the brain looks for which are distorted beyond recognition when a person gains too much weight.
Now, that isn't to say that all value of a person comes from their level of attractiveness. However, for all purposes that attractiveness play in life, it would be wrong to ask them to change their definition as it isn't up to them. As I already explained, it is part of our biology, truly a part of being human, so you would ask them to deny their humanity for you. That is ridiculous, so if you want the things of life which come with attracting others, you're better off greatly increasing your chances by losing weight.
Ahjusshi, same thought goes same with the anorexic idols also. People need to take care of themselves better.
ReplyDeleteI partly disagree with the statement of scientifically proven that obesity is unattractive. During the middle ages to the pre-idustrialized age, fat people (not really obese) were considered attractive because it was considered living a leisurely life, only the rich could get fat. Now considering how mass produced the food industry right now anybody can get fat and its not tied only to the rich.
But as I said before, people need to take care of themselves more. being underweight is the same thing as being overweight, they both give you health problems, short and long term.
I understand where Friglet is coming from, reminds me of the TLC song, Unpretty. Piggy dolls message is pretty much lined up with the meaning of unpretty and the poem it was based on.
Unfortunately there is no way to prove this, but I would assume that kissing up to captain moneybags back in the day was different than actual attraction. I am talking about real studies of brain and hormone activity in the body when looking at different types of people, biological responses that transcend culture.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that the same can go with being underweight, just looks at all the guys crying over Yuri these days. I have often wondered how attractive I would find a lot of idols if I were to see them in real life. I'm sure they would still be pretty, but would they be OMG HOT or would it be like OMG TOO SKINNY? I really wonder, and I think the best bet is definitely to be slim from being active rather than purely dieting your way down. Sporty slim is always waaaay hotter and obviously for guys it is the only way to gain the muscles girls like.
slim from being active is definitly a WHOLE lot sexier then just slimming to lose extra pounds. I mean....im just drooling just thinking about them....womens volleyball :P
ReplyDeleteSlim body with a toned muscle mass.
I am one of those that cried foul on yuri losing them pounds. I wasnt a huge fan of Yuri but I really like the way she looked before, she looked normal. Now after a drastic fat loss, she is looking way to underweight. Seeing her in the last Strongheart episode that she appeared in which was in december or something, she looked awesome, now seeing her in Musicstation when they perform in japan or fancams of the concerts and lives, she is just sticks.
coming from the exact website that bashes on hyoyeon, doojoon and others for beigg ugly...
ReplyDeletepfffft
ReplyDeletecause none of the writers on this site talk about how much they fap to some girl group member and how often that's the only reason they watch their videos or listen to their music.
Hate on the faces of groups like Yoona, Hara and Dara all you want but they are part of the reason those groups are popular and talented people like Gavy NJ, Lady Collection and Brand New Day are ignored.
Its what the public wants and what you fap to so its relevant to you.
You call people ugly on this site then bash them for getting PS.. so the only way you're happy is if they were born perfect and then of course if they aren't you're "type" they still aren't good enough.
When you're oh 17 and thousands of people are pointing out your every flaw on the internet, like you all like to do every now and then about a slightly-bigger-than-the-average-idol or bony celebrity, you tell me if you'd want plastic surgery or not? You'd want to lose weight too and hell i'm glad they lost some weight because there was no way they were healthy... maybe not THIS much but whatever.
Point is you guys are huge f*cking hypocrites so don't go telling these girls off.
Size has never psychologically been linked to attraction, shape and proportion have been proved to be much more important. Most notably prominent hips that relay good child bearing in women.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of the Piggy Dolls, they ACTUALLY KNOW how to stay healthy despite their size. They are unlike just about EVERY K-pop girl group who either looks skinny or has had many a stupid diet.
ReplyDeleteOh and by the way, having a FLAT chest CAN NEVER be sexy. Anyone who proclaims otherwise is ignorant!
@2:43 If you hadn't noticed, there are 13 different authors on this site. We all have different views and attitudes. Shin-B is one of our female authors, so I doubt she has ever talked about fapping to kpop girls. Also, sometimes we contradict ourselves for the sake of humor, like my offended-conservative "Sexuality in kpop" article being quickly followed up with excited-liberal "Sexy women in kpop" article even using the same song. It's fun to not take yourself too seriously but also think about life at the same time.
ReplyDelete@2:47 There reaches a point in weight gain when those shapes and proportions are impossible to have. I was clearly talking about obesity, not the difference between your average healthy girl and extra-skinny kpop idols. That is why I said earlier "There are features the brain looks for which are distorted beyond recognition when a person gains too much weight."
@3:48 Well, maybe not FLAT but I prefer smaller, like... Well I guess I'll have to reference something naked yet famous: The Venus de Milo statue. A lot of guys these days would call that flat, but I like it. A lot of Asian girls have breasts like that. That isn't to say I don't notice and enjoy a nice plump pair, like say...Yura, but there is definitely a point where it's too big... like maybe... Jihyun? They catch your eye, but so would a dude's bulge if his pants were too tight. Some things you just notice because it's noticeable.
To be honest, Venus de Milo IS NOT flat-chested. I just find it annoying that certain K-pop girls like Sooyoung is called sexy even though she is FLAT.
ReplyDeleteIronic you should talk about "not taking yourself seriously" when you take every little thing you read from fans so seriously.
ReplyDeleteAs much as there are a limited few insane fans in Kpop just like in all fandoms... I have yet to meet one in the international forums. When someone writes "best song ever" or "omg so and so is amazing best singer ever" 99% of the time they don't actually mean it. People get excited about things and say something like omg its the best thing ever, how often have I heard people say that about a pizza place or a video game. They don't mean that they actually believe there isn't a better song or a better pizza place in the entire world but you guys use it as evidence of them actually believing that and I think that's exaggeration on your (the site) part. I know there aren't really any singers in kpop (as in idols and such) that can rival Mariah Carey or Lara Fabian but people spazz about what they, personally, like. I don't think math homework is the worst thing in the world but I used to say it alot. And about beauty or what voice sounds good to someone, thats subjective too and just because it might seem odd to you that someone genuinely believes Yoona is the most beautiful person on this planet doesn't mean they are crazy or obsessed.
Frankly I don't see how you could demand that I differentiate between one writer and another when many of you writers lump all fans of a group in the same place and when one apparent fan does and says something stupid you call the entire fandom out. Even going as far as insulting the fandom as a group as if we are all responsible for a minority of over-the-top fans, the ones who are serious.
Lastly there are some 13 year olds (and under or some over) who take kpop seriously, but they are 13, everything is dramatic and serious at that age. Why expect maturity from pre-pubescent kids? It just seem like this entire thing is about you being annoyed by the way normal kids/teens act.... Older fans, even when they say "omg i love so and so s/he is perfect" they don't actually mean they are 100% without flaws so stop screencaping stuff like that and calling it "evidence".
I don't know if you've worked with teenagers but that's what phases are all about, liking something a lot and rebelling when someone tells you its not good, being stubborn until you grow it out and move on. If that's what this site is working against I fear you're wasting your time. Adolescent psychology is unlikely to change anytime soon but unless fans are doing something, immortal, illegal or weird (like sending bloody letters to idols or sending death threats to a singer's girlfriend), all you are doing is criticizing people (many young kids) for liking something and exaggerating about it to their friends on the internet, or what they call life.
Forgive me if I just.... don't.....get it.
And before i get the typical "if you don't like it get off the site" talk (which sounds like something a kpop fan would say *cough*). As much as these writers have a right to express their opinions, so do I. I'm pointing out what i find silly just as they do with Kpop.
Venus de Milo is probably somewhere between an A and a B. That is ideal to me, but A is still good. LOL & good example with Sooyoung. She has even smaller boobs than Taeyeon, like, somehow less than an A cup. Though I think even a B cup would look awkwardly large on her skinny body.
ReplyDeleteBut are you saying that being flat disqualifies her from having any sexiness? Or are people actually saying she has nice boobs? I'm confused. It doesn't make any sense to say a girl on the whole is not sexy at all because you don't find one part of her sexy.
I'm personally not that into her because I prefer short girls.
Damn, that was one huge message without many paragraph breaks. I still read it, though.
ReplyDeleteI'm starting to think we need to have a "What we're about" page so people can understand. You see, this site isn't trying to change anyone's mind, it's just a safe haven for ranting/criticizing and maybe with a funny twist.
If you are realistic about kpop, a lot of it is fucked up. Maybe, as a human being, you want to talk about those things with others in an honest manner. Yet you go to any kpop site, be it a general forum or for a specific group, and you will get your ass jumped by twenty thousand irrational fangirls. This has made the kpop internet a land of delusion and denial, hounding and even banning people who show the slightest bit of honesty rather than 100% praise for everything.
So we made this site. We are anti-fangirls in the sense that we hate how they affect the social environment. We know damn well that 98% of them are crazed teenagers, but that doesn't make it any less annoying when we can't talk about what we think, even if it is to each other and not addressing them at all. We can do that here because we do not welcome or pander to fangirls wishes for a happy dreamland, and even beyond this, we may just use this as an outlet for our negative feelings and pour our positive feelings out elsewhere.
So there you have it. This site is mostly for us, not you. Unless you feel like bitching or laughing about or criticizing something in the land kpop, then feel free to do so. We'll have discussion about it in the comments section of any article or in our new chatbox.
Yes, being flat-chested is a disqualification for sexiness since flat-chested girls can sadly be mistaken for gay men.
ReplyDeleteDo Taeyeon and Fei have enough titties for you? I could never mistake them for men. Same for Jisook and Noeul.
ReplyDeleteSadly, they can me mistaken for trannies who had sex reassignment surgery. And yes, I've seen those people. Good grief, 9/10 guys who saw those trannies mistook them for girls!
ReplyDeleteThen again, having supersized boobs aren't that practical either. Just saying.
ReplyDeleteBack to the Piggy Dolls, I'm really saddened as to how the mainstream K-pop scene has been ignoring them simply for looks.
Nong Poy could probably fool more than 9/10 guys.
ReplyDeleteOh yes, those trannies have fooled 19/20 guys! How imbecilic for those guys, really.
ReplyDeleteseems like some people are butthurt now lol
ReplyDeleteOddly, I'm not one of those guys who were fooled.
ReplyDelete